This is an e-mail that circulated between him an myself over a period of a couple days. Please read both evangelism efforts and theology for both arguments and decide for yourself what is biblical.
I pray you bless the readers of this blog, I earnestly petition for their blinded eyes to be opened wide by the anointing of Your Spirit, and that the spirit of confusion may be bound during their time of viewing and thought on this subject. I pray that You receive the honor and glory in all the efforts made by all the participants of this activity. I pray Lord, that You may bring all mankind to your throne of Grace and bring conviction, love, and refuge. In the mighty, powerful and authoritive name of Chirst Jesus, my God, my Savior, and my Strong Tower. Amen!"
*The only modifications made to this document were grammatical errors made by Fr. Jim Gigliotti and myself in typing so quickly. –James Farrell
> -----Original Message-----> From: James P Farrell [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org]> Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 11:53 PM> To: email@example.com> Subject: doctrine?>
what's your take on the baptism in the holy spirit? Mary being a co-redemptrix?
From: John Cox [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org]> Sent: Tue 10/28/2008 2:07 PM> To: James P Farrell> Cc: 'jim gigliotti'> Subject: RE: doctrine?
Hi James,Being Baptized in the Holy Spirit is a good thing (I am unclear on whatyou mean by being "baptized in the Holy Sprit)...If you are referring to, as being "saved", we believe we are "saved" at baptism, however if we areunfaithful to our baptismal promises we can loose our salvation, Christ does not take it away from us, but we forfeit our salvation if we continue to choose to live a life of sin. https://exchange.sagu.edu/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.catholic.com/library/assurance_of_salvation.asp https://exchange.sagu.edu/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0502sbs.asp In regards to Mary and the title "co-redemptrix" the word "co" means"with" not equal to. Mary redeemed humanity with Jesus but not equal to Jesus.We as baptized members, redeem humanity with Christ by evangelizing andspreading the faith, so we are in a very real sense "co-redeemers" aswell, however we are not equal to the redemption that Christ gave us, which Heand He alone could do for us (See Col 1:24)> https://exchange.sagu.edu/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0712fea1sb2.asp> https://exchange.sagu.edu/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0712fea1sb3.asp
> John Cox> Director of Faith Formation> email@example.com
> -----Original Message-----> From: James P Farrell [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org]> Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 8:15 AM> To: John Cox> Subject: RE: doctrine?>
the baptism in the holy spirit is referred to all throughout the book of acts, when the holy spirit fell on the disciples and saw tongues of fire come and settle on them, and they began to speak in other tongues. as well as in the book of acts, in 1 Corinthians 12-14 there are guidelines forthe "spiritual gifts" and how to use them in the church. I was raised catholicand never taught about them. I actually grew up under Fr. Jim’s leadership and I was hoping he would personally send me a reply. I have been baptized in the holy spirit and getting my bachelors in theology and my eyes are being opened to many things I was never taught or things I shouldn’t havebeen taught. I was wondering why you believe that. nowhere does it say thatMary paid the price "with" Jesus. to redeem means to bring back what was lost, our souls were lost and Jesus brought them back through his blood. Mary or us as believers can do that. we can point people in the right direction. I’m not trying to just argue or anything, I’m trying to figure out what I believe. prove me wrong if you can w/ scriptures please, the word says to weigh everything against the word.
[John Cox did no further replying to me, but sent the following to Fr. Jim Gigliotti]
Below is the response that I received from James, which was an e-mail that you sent me asking to respond. I'll be responding back, just thought you would like to know
[From Fr. Jim]
-----Original Message-----From: frjimgigliotti.smgparish.org [mailto:email@example.com]Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 10:19 AMTo: John CoxSubject: Re: FW: doctrine?
Dear JamesPeace to you...I hope you don't mind that John Cox forwarded your reply to his reply.I did not answer you because I am alone here for a month while Fr. Mike isawayand Fr. Simon too. I have been swamped.Anyway, to respond to you, finally...The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is of course very Biblical as you note.Since 1966, the "Charismatic Renewal" in the Catholic Church has grown, beginning in Pittsburgh, PA at Duquesne University, to now. A group ofprofessors and students of theology were doing a Bible study and quite adiscussion began about the Pentecost experience of our Faith. They decided, after much prayer and fasting, to pray from the heart for just such anoutpouring and they had a profound experience akin to ACTS. Their hungerforthe Scriptures and particularly for the Eucharist grew deeply, immediately.Long story short, I was part of that growing MOVEMENT of the Holy Spirit inourCatholic Church in 1968, at our Seminary, not far from Pittsburgh. I wasBaptized in the Holy Spirit! It was absolutely wonderful. Some day I willtell you about it if you'd ever like to hear it (my Baptism in the HolySpirit). It led to great growth in my Faith and love for the Lord and theChurch. Hunger for the Scripture deepened greatly and my appreciation andlovefor the Lord in the Eucharist just exploded.I was involved deeply in the Charismatic Renewal for twelve years.Eventually, the prayer group I was involved with experienced some leadership changeswhichwere needed. I was transferred and the place I was sent to teach did nothave the same group as I'd become accustomed to. There was sort of anaturaltransition to the regular expression of the faith (prayer and study) and Iwasable to bring my deeper sense of the Lord to the community at large. I sawtheworking of the Holy Spirit in this. Once simply gives what one has. That'sasign of belonging to Christ. We never hoard; we share and do this withlove.Regarding the REDEMPTRIX title you mention...semantics can cause confusion.This does not and never has put the Blessed Mother on the same level as ourDivine Savior. The title specifically refers to the fact she bore the SonofGod as the Father's INSTRUMENT, bringing him into the world via her womb andher surrendering will to His will.Councils of the early Church spent quite a bit of energy and passion overMary'srole in the economy of salvation. The result of prayerful discernment, relyingon the inspirations of the Holy Spirit for specifically what does the Churchteach (as a response to Protestant stands that she was only the Mother ofJesus' humanity) is that She is the Mother of God..."Theotokos" in theGreek.It's a very rich and beautiful teaching as part of the Catholic Deposit ofFaith. Studying theology as you are, you surely will come into this.I became involved, again, in the Charismatic Renewal in Florida in 1988. Asalways, it was a wonderful, growing experience in deep prayer and much studyofthe Scriptures and what the Church teaches after the closing of the BiblicalCanon (Book of Revelation).Coming to Texas in 1996, I did not find a Prayer Group locally in thisDiocese.Fr. Joe Lehman, TOR was a Deacon here and a native of Dallas. During hisyear ofinternship here, prior to his ordination to the priesthood, he attended aprayergroup he'd belonged to in college...I think, in Dallas; they were andperhapsstill are called "The Community of God's Delight." His home parish is SaintRita's in Dallas and when I visited there years ago, the Jesuit priestsadministered and staffed the Parish. I do not know the Diocese of Dallas, butit seems to me, the Jesuits gave that Parish back to the diocesan priests totake over. I do believe they (the prayer group) are still there though.The "Charismatic Movement" was also known as the "Catholic PentecostalMovement." At our seminary in PA., bus loads of Protestant Pentecostalswouldcome to our Catholic Seminary for our Wednesday night prayer meetings. Theycertainly added some gusto to the meetings, but they caused some tensionover"dissing" the Sacraments, particularly the Eucharist. Most of them left ourPrayer Group over this, but about a fourth of that group became Catholics!Any way, again, I realized the title some times assigned to Mary you refertocan be confusing. But again, it is not that Christ is the Redeemer and Maryisthe "female Redeemer" or "Redemptrix." It is an honorific titleconcentratingON THE TWO PERSONS IN ONE GOD...Jesus Christ. It is very much aChrist-centered teaching, but the semantics of it can confuse the Faithful.This is why there was and is much clarification coming from the Holy Seeaboutthis title. Mary is not to be divinized! That is not our teaching. Shewaswithout sin, we are taught, not of her own doing, of course. The Fatherapplied the merits of His Son on the Cross to the Blessed Mother retroactively. By the merits of Christ's Sacrifice on the Cross, redeeming man-kind, shewasspared being born "wounded" as St. Augustine called Original Sin.Well, I could go on and on but I hope this speaks to you?
well I’m glad you cleared that up for me. thank you so much for taking time out of your schedule to invest in me.
where in the word does it talk about Mary being born w/o Adam and eve's original sin? I believe she was made perfect in the eyes of god, but as are we all through salvation until we screw up again. the way you make it sound is that she was perfect through the choice of god, not her own. I realize she should be honored for her willingness to submit to god's will, as should Elijah and Enoch, but you're making it sound like she ended up being a robot being controlled by god so he would have a perfect medium to birth his son into this world. the new gospels say he was born of a virgin, not of a perfect mother, as well as he was tempted in every way we were, wouldn’t that include living the life of a normal human being- and being born of a normal human being like we all were? I realize he was the son of god, but he went to hell and broke out, wouldn’t he be able to withstand the birth of a normal mother? I’m not sure about this I’m just throwing some thoughts out there.
and YES I would love to meet and talk about your involvement in the charismatic revival.
From: frjimgigliotti.smgparish.org [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org]Sent: Mon 11/3/2008 1:04 PMTo: James P FarrellCc: email@example.comSubject:
Goodness, James, you have a lot of studying to do about the Church and Mary!She was hardly a robot! I can't imagine where you would get such an absurdidea. Her whole Magnificat sings of her "Thy will be done." And we don'tLIMIT ourselves to solo scriptura, as Protestants do. They threw the baby outwith the bathwater, so to speak, in excising the working of the Holy Spirit inthe Body of Christ the Church after the closing of the Biblical Canon. We haveScripture and TRADITION, remember? Sounds as if you are filling up onProtestant thinking. The word "Protestant" means "the protesting ones." Whatthey protest is Catholic teaching/the deposit of faith. You say you arestudying theology? Where, may I ask? It doesn't sound like you're in aCatholic teaching/study University.Do not just go to "the Word" but ALSO to the Church Fathers (especially) and theteaching Councils of the Church. Sounds as though you are excising two thousandyears of Church teaching Tradition.Be careful!God bless, Fr. Jim
well Jim, I’m not sure if you remember me or not. I am James Farrell (then James Arevalo, step son of Jaime Arevalo we were kind of close back in the 90's I guess.), my brother is still at SMG John Paul Arevalo. and I’m proud to say that I am now assemblies of god. (Pentecostal). I am studying at southwestern assemblies of god university in Waxahachie, tax. and no it’s not a catholic school. (https://exchange.sagu.edu/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.sagu.edu). I do know that there is much corruption within the church, esp. within the catholic church. tradition is useless as is religion itself, its not about a set of traditions or rituals, it’s about a relationship.
the word says to weigh everything against it. and there is nothing in the bible about Mary (or the "queen of heaven" as Catholics call her: Jeremiah 7:18 and 44) being any more divine than Moses or Solomon. the word also says do not add anything unto it as the Catholics have added many of the books of the apocrypha to their bible. (which have many contradictions-one of which Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three separate deaths in three separate places...not really reliable text there - the same book that provides your doctrine of purgatory... Tobit 6:5-8 talks about using magic - not of god but witchcraft type magic to get rid of demons and Wisdom implies Mary’s immaculate conception in a form of incarnation as Jesus was. As if she was already a deity or entity in heaven and god sent her to earth, like Jesus/god was) if it was a salvation issue there would be scriptures about prayer to Mary and all the weirdo beliefs in Catholicism. however there is not; but there are scriptures about worshipping the creator, not the creation (Romans 1:25 -prayer is a form of worship-as is putting so much emphasis on a mere TOOL.) 1 timothy 4 lists many of your doctrines, like no meat on Fridays and forbidden marriages among priests as doctrines taught by demons. Mary being an intercessor with the "saints" even though the bible entitles the believers saints, not dead people - and the pope who's title is "vicar" (substitute-kind of like co-redemptrix)
I could never be a part of a religion w/ that many flaws, contradiction and scandals. the papal line cannot be accounted for fully and historically, Mary’s appearances and assignments have too many contradictions with the word of the CREATOR, and the catholic mass is nothing but a focus on the death of Jesus and all the blood and gore. kind of cultish. I like knowing that the god I serve is alive and has power and authority. if there is a non catholic and he goes to your mass one time, he's going get scared b/c all you do is chant, re-crucify god, eat cannibalistically, and give the enemy his deceiving victory (2 Corinthians 11:13)
you messed up when you talked to me like I was uneducated "Goodness, James, you have a lot of studying to do about the Church and Mary!" I have studied this, I have studied it very much in depth, and I have been growing in god by leaps and bounds and operating in the gifts of the spirit and getting people saved (by their own free will- not by trapping them into a church as a baby, defenseless and immature) I was just giving my childhood ritual a chance to see if I missed anything. thank you for your time Jim. Any responses would be greatly appreciated and welcomed.
Well, my friend, I think you are the one who has "messed up"! You DO have alot of studying to do, the Truth, and it seems your pride has gotten in theway of acknowledging it.How could you possibly embrace such errors as are in the "Church" you sayyou are now in?You obviously did not know the Catholic Church that you have so blithelyleft. How could you EVER give up the Eucharist which is the CENTER of theRELATIONSHIP with Christ?Who has brainwashed you????I shall keep you in prayer that the Holy Spirit of Truth shall bring youback to the One True Church.My, what a disappointment!Fr. Jim
[Fr. Jim then sent s second response before I could send one]
From: jim gigliotti [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org]Sent: Mon 11/3/2008 4:29 PMTo: James P FarrellSubject: RE:
James: More calmly than before, (sorry!); you really do need the study thetruth of the Catholic faith. Some one is really leading you down the wrongroad. Sorry if you found my statement about more study, but my, you are SOoff course, James!God bless,Fr. Jim
Jim, my eyes are opened. and the Eucharist is not the center of our relationship, that is a doctrine and a tradition...it’s a cracker, a symbol. john 6 is about how Christ had to constantly keep proving himself to his disciples that he was the Christ. so he put it in a way they could understand, god sent manna from heaven for their fathers, during the exile, and now god is sending the bread of life to earth for them, spiritual bread of life. Jesus said whoever eats and drinks of me shall never hunger and thirst again, no literal bread and ever fill us up for eternity... it was a symbol, spiritually. Jesus said: "take this, this is my body..." as he was holding up a piece of bread, not cutting off his arm and serving it to his disciples. see the symbolism?
I am not brainwashed. the same spirit that tells me to give words of encouragement, (the HOLY spirit) gives me conviction of my sin, and leads me to the cross each and every morning, is leading me away form the catholic faith.
it’s cool about you getting all upset. I totally understand, in my evangelism I often find myself stressed and quick to speak, but that Spirit I was talking about is helping me calm that down.
and what errors are in the church that I am in? I can guarantee there are not as numerous as the catholic faith has had. I only claim Pentecostal because it lines up the closest to what I believe. I think religion is meaningless. it’s all about the relationship you have with your lord and savior.
funny you mention the "one true church" because catholic translates literally into "universal" which is what the antichrist is going to promote when he comes to power. a "universal" religion. and he's going to set himself up in God's temple, and with the way the catholic religion is canonizing saints and adding doctrines with every council that meets, I wouldn’t be surprised if they approved it in the Vatican...(which translates into "city of PROPHECY"...)
Thank you for your statement about me not knowing enough, it only pushed me to dig deeper into his word; and I welcome challenges like that. did you look up any of the verses or acknowledge any of the facts I gave in my previous e-mail?
You are just pathetic!How OLD is your expression of Church???Please do not bother me until you see the Truth.Thanks,Fr. JimPS: by the way: your theology is about as fluffy as it comes! There is notdepth to it.You should be ashamed of yourself, James!I bet you are breaking your mother's heart!John's Gospel says "This IS my body and this IS my blood."If you had any depth to your study, you'd know this from the original Greek.I pray some day you may return to the TRUE Faith.Fr. Jim
wow some great priest evangelist you are. that’s just another reason I want nothing to do with your religion. some real mature "man" of god you are. if you truly had a heart for god you'd be concerned about my soul and trying to disciple me like your assistant did. what do you mean how old is my expression of the church?
all the theology I threw at you was not only deep, but true and you know it in your heart of hearts. the word of god is...well THE WORD OF GOD. and no belief should ever contradict that, not one, or many like the catholic faith do. and it was limited to the bible because I do not take testimonies as truth... I test them...you know...like the bible says to. (you should really check 2 Corinthians 11:13 - this explains the appearances of Mary and the way she tells everyone to pray to her instead of god)
I’m not ashamed, I’m living my life right. do you know what the catholic faith did to me?! the asst. youth leader helping with the confirmation classes at St. Joe’s offered me sex, she was my age. they saw me smoking and did nothing about it. I told them I needed help and they did no follow ups after services, no personal prayer for me...nothing. I attempted suicide when I was at SMG and all you guys did was put me in a secular mental institution with a demon possessed girl who was constantly telling me her visions... no public announcement for prayer as the bible says to do (pray as a body for its members..it’s a family, carry one another’s burdens.)
some great parishes there....and not only that, when I try one final time to maybe rekindle an old belief that I once threw out, I try to debate my point to see if I’m wrong, my research goes unnoticed, I’m called uneducated and pathetic by some "man" more than 3x my age. what gospel are you preaching over there? because the one I read in the real bible is one of love, discipleship and purity; not of cultish doctrines, and belittling and harsh priests.
o and by the way, my mother is very proud of me and supports me in what I am doing. I am fulfilling my calling in being a preacher, and I’m going to Barbados to witness to the occult and those in poverty there. but thanks for trying to bring me down by bringing my supposed ashamed mother into it...wow you’re not too good at this whole evangelism thing are you? I was just trying to see if I was right in my beliefs...looks like I was. thanks jim.
notice every statement I make you don’t acknowledge, but everyone you make I give a sufficient argument for? if you can seriously give me some proof that what you re saying are true, I’d be more open to accept your gospel. please tell me jim...what is the original Greek of john 6? and don’t forget to put it in context
I was only replied to one last time. It simply said something along the lines of how I'm going to hell for leaving his religion. Unofrtunately, I deleted the last circulation of e-mails.
I pray this has made an impact on your life and your view of "religion". It is not about "religion" or vain tradtitions made by men, it's about a personal, saturated, anointed and power-filled relationship with the One and Only Son of God!